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	<title>Comments on: Urban[ism] Legend: Traffic Planning</title>
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	<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2009/08/14/urbanism-legends-traffic-planning/</link>
	<description>Urbanism for Capitalists / Capitalism for Urbanists</description>
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		<title>By: amm139</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2009/08/14/urbanism-legends-traffic-planning/#comment-6663</link>
		<dc:creator>amm139</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 May 2010 03:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=1176#comment-6663</guid>
		<description>I lived in Cambodia for two years, and let me tell you--people don&#039;t make it anywhere quickly or safely, at least within Phnom Penh. Cambodia has one of the highest rates of traffic related deaths in all of Southeast Asia. The video above shows a fairly small intersection. It&#039;s not at all representative of the traffic situation there. We spent 2 hours in an SUV on a main thoroughfare one afternoon during rush hour and only went 1.5 miles. Most days I rode on the back of a moto with a local motodop, and I saw my life flash before my eyes more times than I&#039;d like to remember.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I lived in Cambodia for two years, and let me tell you&#8211;people don&#39;t make it anywhere quickly or safely, at least within Phnom Penh. Cambodia has one of the highest rates of traffic related deaths in all of Southeast Asia. The video above shows a fairly small intersection. It&#39;s not at all representative of the traffic situation there. We spent 2 hours in an SUV on a main thoroughfare one afternoon during rush hour and only went 1.5 miles. Most days I rode on the back of a moto with a local motodop, and I saw my life flash before my eyes more times than I&#39;d like to remember.</p>
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		<title>By: Suburbain lucide.net &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Le mythe du feu de circulation</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2009/08/14/urbanism-legends-traffic-planning/#comment-6635</link>
		<dc:creator>Suburbain lucide.net &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Le mythe du feu de circulation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jan 2010 16:13:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=1176#comment-6635</guid>
		<description>[...] Market Urbanism [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Market Urbanism [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Abram VanElswyk</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2009/08/14/urbanism-legends-traffic-planning/#comment-6536</link>
		<dc:creator>Abram VanElswyk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 09:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=1176#comment-6536</guid>
		<description>Actually, failure is not inevitable. I &quot;conquered the grid&quot; (the &#039;impossible&#039; level) with about 6900 points. But then I studied at a similar Intelligent Transportation Systems Laboratory, the one at &lt;a href=&quot;http://its.pdx.edu/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Portland State&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;The long-term solution is of course to implement roundabouts as fast as possible. This started with the private sector (the Summerlin community in Las Vegas was the first roundabout-based arterial network) but has now caught on among the public sector, particularly in the northeast.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, failure is not inevitable. I &#8220;conquered the grid&#8221; (the &#39;impossible&#39; level) with about 6900 points. But then I studied at a similar Intelligent Transportation Systems Laboratory, the one at <a href="http://its.pdx.edu/" rel="nofollow">Portland State</a>.</p>
<p>The long-term solution is of course to implement roundabouts as fast as possible. This started with the private sector (the Summerlin community in Las Vegas was the first roundabout-based arterial network) but has now caught on among the public sector, particularly in the northeast.</p>
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		<title>By: MarketUrbanism</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2009/08/14/urbanism-legends-traffic-planning/#comment-6393</link>
		<dc:creator>MarketUrbanism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 01:38:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks for the clarification.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the clarification.</p>
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		<title>By: JM</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2009/08/14/urbanism-legends-traffic-planning/#comment-6392</link>
		<dc:creator>JM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 01:28:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=1176#comment-6392</guid>
		<description>Sorry for the belated reply, didn&#039;t see the follow-up in email.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I&#039;m not sure &quot;illusion&quot; was the best word choice there. I think what I was trying to say fits more with what concernedaboutwinnipeg - amazing to watch but not the full story and not good support for your thesis. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;i&gt;as you said, &quot;Actually being concerned about the well-being of other drivers and pedestrians goes a lot further than debating traffic signals.&quot; Of course, if there&#039;s a cultural breakdown of empathy, (such as in totalitarian regimes) it could be a bloody nightmare...&lt;/i&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;That comment is actually directed more towards what I see driving in the rural-urban fringe where I&#039;m currently located. I&#039;ve only seen worse driving in LA. There&#039;s a distinct lack of empathy or consideration of other drivers around here (where a lot of people drive 30 or more minutes on a daily basis) in a place that is quickly evolving from rural (maybe 10-15 yrs ago) to spread-out suburb. Considering in the US you can get a license by passing a test and having a few hours of driving training vs Germany where you must be 18 and I believe it costs several thousand dollars, we should maybe spend more time in making sure we have better drivers on the road (which I alluded to in the last sentence). &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;As to an American driving through that intersection, in PP they&#039;re usually driven around in a Land Cruiser owned by their NGO by local staff or have a scooter. Walking is a force of will but it can be done as long as you have good timing and isn&#039;t a problem outside PP. Same holds true for India though the Indians can stack a family of four or five on a scooter (man driving, five year old between him and handles, seven year old squeezed between him and the wife whose riding pillion and holding the baby) which is frightening to watch. I think the experiment in Germany might work but there is a reason why places like Cambodia and India have high road death tolls. And the US. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;It&#039;s good to get these ideas out there as (hopefully) infrastructural changes will be more part of the national dialogue soon though I think it will be limited to more of a local basis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry for the belated reply, didn&#39;t see the follow-up in email.</p>
<p>I&#39;m not sure &#8220;illusion&#8221; was the best word choice there. I think what I was trying to say fits more with what concernedaboutwinnipeg &#8211; amazing to watch but not the full story and not good support for your thesis. </p>
<p><i>as you said, &#8220;Actually being concerned about the well-being of other drivers and pedestrians goes a lot further than debating traffic signals.&#8221; Of course, if there&#39;s a cultural breakdown of empathy, (such as in totalitarian regimes) it could be a bloody nightmare&#8230;</i></p>
<p>That comment is actually directed more towards what I see driving in the rural-urban fringe where I&#39;m currently located. I&#39;ve only seen worse driving in LA. There&#39;s a distinct lack of empathy or consideration of other drivers around here (where a lot of people drive 30 or more minutes on a daily basis) in a place that is quickly evolving from rural (maybe 10-15 yrs ago) to spread-out suburb. Considering in the US you can get a license by passing a test and having a few hours of driving training vs Germany where you must be 18 and I believe it costs several thousand dollars, we should maybe spend more time in making sure we have better drivers on the road (which I alluded to in the last sentence). </p>
<p>As to an American driving through that intersection, in PP they&#39;re usually driven around in a Land Cruiser owned by their NGO by local staff or have a scooter. Walking is a force of will but it can be done as long as you have good timing and isn&#39;t a problem outside PP. Same holds true for India though the Indians can stack a family of four or five on a scooter (man driving, five year old between him and handles, seven year old squeezed between him and the wife whose riding pillion and holding the baby) which is frightening to watch. I think the experiment in Germany might work but there is a reason why places like Cambodia and India have high road death tolls. And the US. </p>
<p>It&#39;s good to get these ideas out there as (hopefully) infrastructural changes will be more part of the national dialogue soon though I think it will be limited to more of a local basis.</p>
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		<title>By: MarketUrbanism</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2009/08/14/urbanism-legends-traffic-planning/#comment-6391</link>
		<dc:creator>MarketUrbanism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 01:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I made no such conclusions.  In fact, you are being disingenuous to claim that I am presenting anything in this post as &quot;overwhelming evidence&quot; of anything other than the marvel of spontaneous order. &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I just presented it as an extremely interesting example that really made me rethink my preconceptions. (in fact, I specifically stated that I am not an advocate of intersections without signals.)  But now that you mention it, I guess this does &lt;i&gt;appear&lt;/i&gt; to be an &quot;example of a workable intersection&quot;.  But, I wouldn&#039;t make that assertion without more facts.  &lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I appreciate the time you took to make your comment, but please be more careful when making assertions that I am being disingenuous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I made no such conclusions.  In fact, you are being disingenuous to claim that I am presenting anything in this post as &#8220;overwhelming evidence&#8221; of anything other than the marvel of spontaneous order. </p>
<p>I just presented it as an extremely interesting example that really made me rethink my preconceptions. (in fact, I specifically stated that I am not an advocate of intersections without signals.)  But now that you mention it, I guess this does <i>appear</i> to be an &#8220;example of a workable intersection&#8221;.  But, I wouldn&#39;t make that assertion without more facts.  </p>
<p>I appreciate the time you took to make your comment, but please be more careful when making assertions that I am being disingenuous.</p>
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		<title>By: concernedaboutwinnipeg</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2009/08/14/urbanism-legends-traffic-planning/#comment-6390</link>
		<dc:creator>concernedaboutwinnipeg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Aug 2009 01:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=1176#comment-6390</guid>
		<description>Just because a short video shows several minutes where no accident took place does not mean this is in any way safe.  It&#039;s an amazing thing to watch, but presenting this as an example of a workable intersection is as disingenuous as the 24 hour news networks presenting one anecdote about someone&#039;s personal story as &quot;overwhelming evidence&quot; in support of their argument - as we see so often in the ongoing American health care debates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just because a short video shows several minutes where no accident took place does not mean this is in any way safe.  It&#39;s an amazing thing to watch, but presenting this as an example of a workable intersection is as disingenuous as the 24 hour news networks presenting one anecdote about someone&#39;s personal story as &#8220;overwhelming evidence&#8221; in support of their argument &#8211; as we see so often in the ongoing American health care debates.</p>
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		<title>By: MarketUrbanism</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2009/08/14/urbanism-legends-traffic-planning/#comment-6389</link>
		<dc:creator>MarketUrbanism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Aug 2009 19:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=1176#comment-6389</guid>
		<description>Thanks Matt.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;If you hadn&#039;t asked, I wouldn&#039;t have realized that all the links had disappeared from the post.  Wierd, but I fixed it.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Here&#039;s the link to the game: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.its.umn.edu/trafficcontrolgame/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.its.umn.edu/trafficcontrolgame/&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Matt.</p>
<p>If you hadn&#39;t asked, I wouldn&#39;t have realized that all the links had disappeared from the post.  Wierd, but I fixed it.</p>
<p>Here&#39;s the link to the game: <a href="http://www.its.umn.edu/trafficcontrolgame/" rel="nofollow">http://www.its.umn.edu/trafficcontrolgame/</a></p>
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