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	<title>Comments on: Urban[ism] Legend: Gas Taxes and Fees Cover All Costs of Road Use</title>
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	<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2008/07/30/urbanism-legend-gas-taxes-covers-all-costs-of-road-use/</link>
	<description>Urbanism for Capitalists / Capitalism for Urbanists</description>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2008/07/30/urbanism-legend-gas-taxes-covers-all-costs-of-road-use/#comment-7771</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Aug 2010 22:58:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=131#comment-7771</guid>
		<description>Good article, very thorough points</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good article, very thorough points</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2008/07/30/urbanism-legend-gas-taxes-covers-all-costs-of-road-use/#comment-6686</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jun 2010 09:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=131#comment-6686</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sunrisecapital.com.pk/&quot;&gt; kse &lt;/a&gt; Sunrise Capital Private Limited is a privately owned independent company At the core, Sunrise Capital is a team of highly accomplished financial professionals with a range of skills and qualifications which enable us to advise confidently and competently on most aspects of portfolio management and associated financial planning issues including specialist areas.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.sunrisecapital.com.pk/"> kse </a> Sunrise Capital Private Limited is a privately owned independent company At the core, Sunrise Capital is a team of highly accomplished financial professionals with a range of skills and qualifications which enable us to advise confidently and competently on most aspects of portfolio management and associated financial planning issues including specialist areas.</p>
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		<title>By: Light Rail - Phoenix area - Arizona (AZ) - Page 22 - City-Data Forum</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2008/07/30/urbanism-legend-gas-taxes-covers-all-costs-of-road-use/#comment-6646</link>
		<dc:creator>Light Rail - Phoenix area - Arizona (AZ) - Page 22 - City-Data Forum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:29:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=131#comment-6646</guid>
		<description>[...] For example, in Houston, the 15 miles of SH 99 from I-10 to US 290 will cost $1 billion to build and maintain over its lifetime, while only generating $162 million in gas taxes. That gives a tax gap ratio of .16, which means that the real gas tax rate people would need to pay on this segment of road to completely pay for it would be $2.22 per gallon.    Austin Contrarian: Do roads pay for themselves?  Vaporizing the Gas Tax Myth &#124; Planetizen  Urban[ism] Legend: Gas Taxes and Fees Cover All Costs of Road Use &#124; Market Urbanism [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] For example, in Houston, the 15 miles of SH 99 from I-10 to US 290 will cost $1 billion to build and maintain over its lifetime, while only generating $162 million in gas taxes. That gives a tax gap ratio of .16, which means that the real gas tax rate people would need to pay on this segment of road to completely pay for it would be $2.22 per gallon.    Austin Contrarian: Do roads pay for themselves?  Vaporizing the Gas Tax Myth | Planetizen  Urban[ism] Legend: Gas Taxes and Fees Cover All Costs of Road Use | Market Urbanism [...]</p>
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		<title>By: MarketUrbanism</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2008/07/30/urbanism-legend-gas-taxes-covers-all-costs-of-road-use/#comment-6435</link>
		<dc:creator>MarketUrbanism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 18:56:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=131#comment-6435</guid>
		<description>DWAnderson:&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;is there any evidence or calculations that show roads to be the least subsidized form of transportation?&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;Well, I think that&#039;s a pretty easy question to answer without vast compilations of data.  Overall, the total dollars that have gone to subsidize roads is certainly many times greater than the total for other forms of transportation, while on a percentage of total dollars spent, other forms probably far exceed the percent of road subsidy per total spending.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;This doesn&#039;t mean we shouldn&#039;t use more market mechanisms, merely that we shouldn&#039;t be surprised if the results in a more market based world were at least as car-centric as those in the current one.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;I wouldn&#039;t be surprised either.  But, I also wouldn&#039;t be surprised if the transaction costs associated with private roads in a free society encouraged innovations that would have made the car obsolete.  But, all other variables held constant, I think it&#039;s safe to bet that development patterns would be more compact and diverse without the heavy subsidies to transportation since the progressive era.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Please don&#039;t mistake me for someone who is advocating one form of transportation over another.  This is where I think O&#039;Toole and I diverge.  He says, &quot;let&#039;s not criticize roads because transit it more subsidized.&quot;  I say, &quot;I don&#039;t care what type of transportation it is, it&#039;s all heavily subsidized.&quot;  So, my overall objective isn&#039;t to advocate one form of transportation over another, but to show that present land use patterns are a reflection of the vast subsidies to transportation, in general.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;First, you raise some interesting negative externalities of highways that are not included in cost discussions, but there are also positive externalities (e.g. more commerce). Is there any strong reason to believe either of these effects dominates?&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;I tried to be careful not to push the externalities angle to hard, but if I wrote it over I think I would downplay the externalities even further since the case can be pretty clearly made with explicit and implicit costs.  It&#039;s too hard to quantify externalities and I find the concept of &quot;costs to society&quot; highly subjective.  So, you could be right - you could be wrong.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Second, your use of opportunity costs with respect to tax revenue is one that as best is not unique to transportation, but rather is an argument that the economic cost of taxes always exceeds the nominal amount of such taxes-- even apart from any efficiency losses with respect to the activity/item being taxed. It is probably correct, but it is hard to measure the effect of this loss because the subsidized project might generate value in excess of the nominal cost. This is unlikely to be true overall given all of the ways in which government resource allocation is inferior to private resource allocation, but I think your post overstates the negative effect rhetorically by not mentioning the value that projects might have in excess of their costs.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;My main point here (perhaps the wording could be improved) is that a private road owner/operator would face the additional burden of taxes on revenue, land, and financing.  Whereas the public sector can ignore this.  So, to claim something &quot;pays for itself&quot; that benefits from reliefs that private businesses cannot take advantage of, significantly distorts the truth.  Either we should examine all private businesses on a pre-tax basis, or we should apply a comparative burden when analyzing public endeavors to see if they &quot;pay for themselves.&quot;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;Given that this seems like a hard area in which to make calculations, I guess I am more inclined than you to cut Randal O&#039;Toole some slack.&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Slack for what?  OK, let&#039;s completely ignore externalities.  I think that it&#039;s quite clear that roads don&#039;t even pay for themselves when only looking at explicit costs.  Throw in implicit costs, which is necessary and proper when asking &quot;does x pay for itself?&quot;, and roads don&#039;t even come close to paying for themselves except maybe a few cases.  If they paid for themselves, we would have a vastly competitive private road market - and we don&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DWAnderson:<br />
<blockquote>is there any evidence or calculations that show roads to be the least subsidized form of transportation?</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, I think that&#39;s a pretty easy question to answer without vast compilations of data.  Overall, the total dollars that have gone to subsidize roads is certainly many times greater than the total for other forms of transportation, while on a percentage of total dollars spent, other forms probably far exceed the percent of road subsidy per total spending.</p>
<blockquote><p>This doesn&#39;t mean we shouldn&#39;t use more market mechanisms, merely that we shouldn&#39;t be surprised if the results in a more market based world were at least as car-centric as those in the current one.</p></blockquote>
<p>I wouldn&#39;t be surprised either.  But, I also wouldn&#39;t be surprised if the transaction costs associated with private roads in a free society encouraged innovations that would have made the car obsolete.  But, all other variables held constant, I think it&#39;s safe to bet that development patterns would be more compact and diverse without the heavy subsidies to transportation since the progressive era.</p>
<p>Please don&#39;t mistake me for someone who is advocating one form of transportation over another.  This is where I think O&#39;Toole and I diverge.  He says, &#8220;let&#39;s not criticize roads because transit it more subsidized.&#8221;  I say, &#8220;I don&#39;t care what type of transportation it is, it&#39;s all heavily subsidized.&#8221;  So, my overall objective isn&#39;t to advocate one form of transportation over another, but to show that present land use patterns are a reflection of the vast subsidies to transportation, in general.</p>
<blockquote><p>First, you raise some interesting negative externalities of highways that are not included in cost discussions, but there are also positive externalities (e.g. more commerce). Is there any strong reason to believe either of these effects dominates?</p></blockquote>
<p>I tried to be careful not to push the externalities angle to hard, but if I wrote it over I think I would downplay the externalities even further since the case can be pretty clearly made with explicit and implicit costs.  It&#39;s too hard to quantify externalities and I find the concept of &#8220;costs to society&#8221; highly subjective.  So, you could be right &#8211; you could be wrong.</p>
<blockquote><p>Second, your use of opportunity costs with respect to tax revenue is one that as best is not unique to transportation, but rather is an argument that the economic cost of taxes always exceeds the nominal amount of such taxes&#8211; even apart from any efficiency losses with respect to the activity/item being taxed. It is probably correct, but it is hard to measure the effect of this loss because the subsidized project might generate value in excess of the nominal cost. This is unlikely to be true overall given all of the ways in which government resource allocation is inferior to private resource allocation, but I think your post overstates the negative effect rhetorically by not mentioning the value that projects might have in excess of their costs.</p></blockquote>
<p>My main point here (perhaps the wording could be improved) is that a private road owner/operator would face the additional burden of taxes on revenue, land, and financing.  Whereas the public sector can ignore this.  So, to claim something &#8220;pays for itself&#8221; that benefits from reliefs that private businesses cannot take advantage of, significantly distorts the truth.  Either we should examine all private businesses on a pre-tax basis, or we should apply a comparative burden when analyzing public endeavors to see if they &#8220;pay for themselves.&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p>Given that this seems like a hard area in which to make calculations, I guess I am more inclined than you to cut Randal O&#39;Toole some slack.</p></blockquote>
<p>Slack for what?  OK, let&#39;s completely ignore externalities.  I think that it&#39;s quite clear that roads don&#39;t even pay for themselves when only looking at explicit costs.  Throw in implicit costs, which is necessary and proper when asking &#8220;does x pay for itself?&#8221;, and roads don&#39;t even come close to paying for themselves except maybe a few cases.  If they paid for themselves, we would have a vastly competitive private road market &#8211; and we don&#39;t.</p>
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		<title>By: DWAnderson</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2008/07/30/urbanism-legend-gas-taxes-covers-all-costs-of-road-use/#comment-6434</link>
		<dc:creator>DWAnderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 03:25:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=131#comment-6434</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m all for more market oriented transportation, but is there any evidence or calculations that show roads to be the least subsidized form of transportation? This doesn&#039;t mean we shouldn&#039;t use more market mechanisms, merely that we shouldn&#039;t be surprised if the results in a more market based world were at least as car-centric as those in the current one.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;With respect to a couple of specific points:&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;First, you raise some interesting negative externalities of highways that are not included in cost discussions, but there are also positive externalities (e.g. more commerce). Is there any strong reason to believe either of these effects dominates?&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Second, your use of opportunity costs with respect to tax revenue is one that as best is not unique to transportation, but rather is an argument that the economic cost of taxes always exceeds the nominal amount of such taxes-- even apart from any efficiency losses with respect to the activity/item being taxed. It is probably correct, but it is hard to measure the effect of this loss because the subsidzied project might generate value in excess of the nominal cost. This is unlikely to be true overall given all of the ways in which government resource allocation is inferior to private resource allocation, but I think your post overstates the negative effect rhetorically by not mentioning the value that projects might have in excess of their costs.&lt;br&gt;&lt;br&gt;Given that this seems like a hard area in which to make calculations, I guess I am nore inclined than you to cut Randal O&#039;Toole some slack.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#39;m all for more market oriented transportation, but is there any evidence or calculations that show roads to be the least subsidized form of transportation? This doesn&#39;t mean we shouldn&#39;t use more market mechanisms, merely that we shouldn&#39;t be surprised if the results in a more market based world were at least as car-centric as those in the current one.</p>
<p>With respect to a couple of specific points:</p>
<p>First, you raise some interesting negative externalities of highways that are not included in cost discussions, but there are also positive externalities (e.g. more commerce). Is there any strong reason to believe either of these effects dominates?</p>
<p>Second, your use of opportunity costs with respect to tax revenue is one that as best is not unique to transportation, but rather is an argument that the economic cost of taxes always exceeds the nominal amount of such taxes&#8211; even apart from any efficiency losses with respect to the activity/item being taxed. It is probably correct, but it is hard to measure the effect of this loss because the subsidzied project might generate value in excess of the nominal cost. This is unlikely to be true overall given all of the ways in which government resource allocation is inferior to private resource allocation, but I think your post overstates the negative effect rhetorically by not mentioning the value that projects might have in excess of their costs.</p>
<p>Given that this seems like a hard area in which to make calculations, I guess I am nore inclined than you to cut Randal O&#39;Toole some slack.</p>
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		<title>By: HorsesAss.Org &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Question for Vesely: Do Bikers Have to Help Bail Out Detroit?</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2008/07/30/urbanism-legend-gas-taxes-covers-all-costs-of-road-use/#comment-3007</link>
		<dc:creator>HorsesAss.Org &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Question for Vesely: Do Bikers Have to Help Bail Out Detroit?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Dec 2008 18:28:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=131#comment-3007</guid>
		<description>[...] do benefit from bikes and bikers are helping subsidize car owners: Every year, the US government spends more than $100 billion to subsidize driving above and beyond driver expenditures on gas taxes, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] do benefit from bikes and bikers are helping subsidize car owners: Every year, the US government spends more than $100 billion to subsidize driving above and beyond driver expenditures on gas taxes, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rad Geek People&#8217;s Daily 2008-12-01 &#8211; Yes, Virginia, government roads really are government subsidized, and no, they don&#8217;t approximate freed-market outcomes</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2008/07/30/urbanism-legend-gas-taxes-covers-all-costs-of-road-use/#comment-2826</link>
		<dc:creator>Rad Geek People&#8217;s Daily 2008-12-01 &#8211; Yes, Virginia, government roads really are government subsidized, and no, they don&#8217;t approximate freed-market outcomes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Dec 2008 22:13:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=131#comment-2826</guid>
		<description>[...] The first reason is that, contrary to popular misconception, government-imposed gasoline taxes and user fees on road users do not actually fully fund the costs of government road-building and maintenance; government funding of roads actually includes a substantial subsidy extracted from taxpayers independently of their usage of the roads. Government budgets for road building and maintenance in the US draw from general funds as well as from earmarked gas taxes and user fees, and those budgets are subsidized by state, local, and federal government to the tune of about 20&#8211;70 cents per gallon.... [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The first reason is that, contrary to popular misconception, government-imposed gasoline taxes and user fees on road users do not actually fully fund the costs of government road-building and maintenance; government funding of roads actually includes a substantial subsidy extracted from taxpayers independently of their usage of the roads. Government budgets for road building and maintenance in the US draw from general funds as well as from earmarked gas taxes and user fees, and those budgets are subsidized by state, local, and federal government to the tune of about 20&#8211;70 cents per gallon&#8230;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Market Urbanism</title>
		<link>http://marketurbanism.com/2008/07/30/urbanism-legend-gas-taxes-covers-all-costs-of-road-use/#comment-856</link>
		<dc:creator>Market Urbanism</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Aug 2008 01:34:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://marketurbanism.com/?p=131#comment-856</guid>
		<description>Great response rationalitate.

I&#039;d also like to point out that, private highways may make payment slightly more complex.  However, what if I told you optimal-flow tolling (that maximizes profit by charging more for busier times) will almost completely eliminate congestion?  The only time you will ever have congestion is if there is an accident.  Since the private operator looses revenue for every second the highway is not at peak flow, it has greater incentive to keep the road safer, clean accidents quickly, and keep construction disturbances to a minimal.  

Congestion will be so rare, you may forget what the word means.  Wouldn&#039;t that make your life less complex overall?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great response rationalitate.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d also like to point out that, private highways may make payment slightly more complex.  However, what if I told you optimal-flow tolling (that maximizes profit by charging more for busier times) will almost completely eliminate congestion?  The only time you will ever have congestion is if there is an accident.  Since the private operator looses revenue for every second the highway is not at peak flow, it has greater incentive to keep the road safer, clean accidents quickly, and keep construction disturbances to a minimal.  </p>
<p>Congestion will be so rare, you may forget what the word means.  Wouldn&#8217;t that make your life less complex overall?</p>
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